John William Wates[1, 2]

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  • Name John William Wates  [3, 4, 5
    Born 21 Aug 1836  Woolwich, Kent, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [3, 6
    Gender Male 
    Census 6 Jun 1841  Lambeth, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [7
    England 
    Census 7 Apr 1861  St. George Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [8
    England 
    Occupation 7 Apr 1861  St. George Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [8
    Teacher of Music etc. 
    Residence 7 Apr 1861  St. George Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [8
    31 New Street 
    Census 2 Apr 1871  Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [9
    England 
    Occupation 2 Apr 1871  Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [9
    Pianoforte Maker 
    Residence 2 Apr 1871  Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [9
    7a Star Corner 
    Census 3 Apr 1881  Chatham, Kent, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [10
    England 
    Occupation 3 Apr 1881  Chatham, Kent, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [10
    Pianoforte Maker & Musician 
    Residence 3 Apr 1881  Chatham, Kent, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [10
    12 King Street 
    Census 5 Apr 1891  Newington, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [11
    England 
    Occupation 5 Apr 1891  Newington, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [11
    Musical Instrument Maker 
    Residence 5 Apr 1891  Newington, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [11
    255 East Street 
    Registration Between 1 Jan 1900 and 31 Mar 1900  St. Saviour Southwark, London, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [12
    Death Registration 
    • Volume 1d, Page 75
    Died 11 Jan 1900  St. Saviours, Bermondsey Find all individuals with events at this location  [3
    Headstones Submit Headstone Photo Submit Headstone Photo 
    Person ID I15298  The Williams Family Tree
    Last Modified 3 Feb 2016 

    Father John Wates
              b. 7 Nov 1812, Woolwich, Kent, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 1 Aug 1849, Lambeth, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 36 years) 
    Mother Catherine Evans
              b. Abt 1816
              d. 29 Jul 1849, Lambeth, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 33 years) 
    Married 2 Nov 1834  Saint Mary, Lewisham, London, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [13, 14
    Family ID F8048  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family 1 Theodora Joyce
              b. 20 May 1822, Bermondsey, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 28 Apr 1869, St. Peter, Walworth, London, England Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 46 years) 
    Married 12 May 1856  St. John's Church, Waterloo, London, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [15
    Registration Jun 1856  Lambeth, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [16
    Marriage Registration 
    • Volume 1d, Page 397
    Children 
     1. Catherine Anne Wates
              b. 9 Jul 1857, St. George Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. Yes, date unknown
     2. Jemima Sarah Ann Wates
              b. 6 Feb 1860, Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. Yes, date unknown
     3. Henrietta Wates
              b. 2 Sep 1861, Newington Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 21 Jul 1944, Brixton, London, England Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 82 years)
     4. Elizabeth Mary Ann Wates
              b. 15 May 1862, St. George, Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. Yes, date unknown
     5. Edward John Wates
              b. 16 Jul 1864, Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 21 Aug 1910, Norwood, Derbyshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 46 years)
    Last Modified 2 Feb 2015 
    Family ID F3922  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family 2 Theodora Anderson
              b. 31 Mar 1839, Blackfriars, London, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 1917  (Age 77 years) 
    Registration Jun 1875  Lambeth, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [17
    Marriage 
    • Volume 1d, Page 597
    Married 5 Jun 1875  Lambeth, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location 
    Children 
     1. John William Wates
              b. 17 May 1871, Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 1938, Camberwell, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 66 years)
     2. Harriet Theodora Wates
              b. 27 Aug 1875, Bermondsey, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 1930  (Age 54 years)
     3. Benjamin Robert Wates
              b. 19 Oct 1877, Southwark, Surrey, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 1917, St. Martins Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 39 years)
    Last Modified 23 Jun 2008 
    Family ID F6086  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

  • Event Map
    Link to Google MapsBorn - 21 Aug 1836 - Woolwich, Kent, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsCensus - England - 6 Jun 1841 - Lambeth, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsRegistration - Marriage Registration - Jun 1856 - Lambeth, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsCensus - England - 7 Apr 1861 - St. George Southwark, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsOccupation - Teacher of Music etc. - 7 Apr 1861 - St. George Southwark, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsResidence - 31 New Street - 7 Apr 1861 - St. George Southwark, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsCensus - England - 2 Apr 1871 - Southwark, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsOccupation - Pianoforte Maker - 2 Apr 1871 - Southwark, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsResidence - 7a Star Corner - 2 Apr 1871 - Southwark, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsRegistration - Marriage - Jun 1875 - Lambeth, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsMarried - 5 Jun 1875 - Lambeth, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsCensus - England - 3 Apr 1881 - Chatham, Kent, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsOccupation - Pianoforte Maker & Musician - 3 Apr 1881 - Chatham, Kent, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsResidence - 12 King Street - 3 Apr 1881 - Chatham, Kent, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsCensus - England - 5 Apr 1891 - Newington, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsOccupation - Musical Instrument Maker - 5 Apr 1891 - Newington, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsResidence - 255 East Street - 5 Apr 1891 - Newington, Surrey, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsRegistration - Death Registration - Between 1 Jan 1900 and 31 Mar 1900 - St. Saviour Southwark, London, England Link to Google Earth
     = Link to Google Earth 
    Pin Legend  : Address       : Location       : City/Town       : County/Shire       : State/Province       : Country       : Not Set

  • Census
    1841: England Census for Lambeth, Surrey
    1841: England Census for Lambeth, Surrey
    HO107 Piece 1057/2 Folio 23 Page 40  

    Dwelling  
    Location Lambeth, London, Surrey, England 
    Source HO107 Piece 1057/2 Folio 23 Page 40 
    Note  
    Surname Forename(s) Age Sex Occupation Birthplace 
    WATES John 25 Organ Builder  
    WATES Catherine 25   
    WATES John   
    WATES Jemima  Surrey 
    WATES Mary  Surrey 
    1861: England Census for Southwark, Surrey
    1861: England Census for Southwark, Surrey
    RG9 Piece 331 Folio 190 Page 30  

    Dwelling 31 New Street 
    Location St. George, Southwark, Surrey, England 
    Source RG9 Piece 331 Folio 190 Page 30 
    Note  
    Surname Forename(s) Relationship Marriage Age Sex Occupation Birthplace 
    WATES John W. Head 25 Teacher of Music etc. Woolwich, Kent 
    WATES Theodora Wife 38 Hat Trimmer Bermondsey, Surrey 
    WATES Catherine F. Daughter   St. George Southwark, Surrey 
    WATES Jemima S. Daughter   St. George Southwark, Surrey 
    ANDERSON Thomas E. Step-son 16 Tyre Smith Christ Church, Surrey 
    1871 England Census for Southwark, Surrey
    1871 England Census for Southwark, Surrey
    RG10 Piece 629 Folio 18 Page 33  

    Dwelling 7a Star Corner 
    Location Southwark, Surrey, England 
    Source RG10 Piece 629 Folio 18 Page 33 
    Note  
    Surname Forename(s) Relationship Marriage Age Sex Occupation Birthplace 
    WATES John Head 34 Pianoforte Maker Woolwich, Kent 
    WATES Theodora Wife 32 Hat Trimmer Southwark, Surrey 
    WATES Catherine Daughter 13 Scholar Southwark, Surrey 
    WATES Jemima Daughter 11 Scholar Southwark, Surrey 
    WATES Elizabeth Daughter Scholar Southwark, Surrey 
    WATES Edward Son Scholar Southwark, Surrey 
    1881 England Census for Chatham, Kent
    1881 England Census for Chatham, Kent
    RG11 Piece 893 Folio 64 Page 30  

    Dwelling 12 King Street 
    Location Chatham, Kent, England 
    Source RG11 Piece 893 Folio 64 Page 30 
    Note  
    Surname Forename(s) Relationship Marriage Age Sex Occupation Birthplace 
    WATES John William Head 45 Pianoforte Maker and Musician Woolwich, Kent 
    WATES Henrietta Daughter  19 Tailoress Southwark, Surrey 
    WATES John Son  Scholar Southwark, Surrey 
    WATES Benjamin Son   Southwark, Surrey 
    1891 England Census for Newington, Surrey
    1891 England Census for Newington, Surrey
    RG12 Piece 362 Folio 5 Page 1  

    Dwelling 255 East Street 
    Location Newington, Surrey, England 
    Source RG12 Piece 362 Folio 5 Page 1 
    Note  
    Surname Forename(s) Relationship Marriage Age Sex Occupation Birthplace 
    WATES John Head 56 Musical Instrument Maker Woolwich, Kent 
    WATES Theodora Wife 52 Hat Trimmer Southwark, Surrey 
    WATES John Son 19 Boot Laster Bermondsey, Surrey 
    WATES Theodora Daughter 15 Boot Machinist Bermondsey, Surrey 
    WATES Benjamin Son  13 Scholar Bermondsey, Surrey 

  • Notes 
    • From John Wates and "The Wates Family Saga" - a 200 page book produced by Margaret Pitt:

      John William Wates, 21.8.1836, Woolwich - d. 1900 St. Saviours, Bermondsey (64). It is said he joined his U. Benjamin's large family when he was 13 years old and does not seem to have adjusted to the strict family discipline and traditions. His two exceptionally clever cousins Ben C. (CH.VII) and John P. (CH.VI) probably made things harder for him as they all lived in Powis Street, Woolwich, at that time.

      He was a colourful character and was trained as a pianoforte maker, but claimed to be a doctor and to have married beneath him. He increased his income by vamping on the violin around the public houses of Bermondsey - the family would have regarded this as a disgrace. It is said his talents were with women, he was regarded as the "black sheep" of the family. He courted a young girl, Theodora Anderson (b. 31.3.1839 St. Saviours district) who took him home to meet her mother, widow Theodora Anderson, nee Joyce, DA. Hen. Joyce, Bootmaker b. 1824. He jilted the girl and married her mother on 12.5.1856 (saying he was of "full age") at St. John's Church, Waterloo; she seems to have had 3 daughters by him - Theodora jun. winessing the marriage with "her mark".

      The family seem to have moved frequently so not easily traced in Census Returns. There is a notebook "Mary Ann Mitton - Her Book" (she was b. 27.11.1814, St. Andrews, Holborn. Thomas Mitton, b. 11.10.1812 was also mentioned). Theodora Anderson jun. seems to have made a complete list of John William's children with their correct dates of birth in this book, (Edward's birth registration is not traced - she may not have registered at that time). Theodora sen. d. 1869 (46) T.B. John William was present at her death, at 13 Villa St., St. Peter, Walworth.

      In 1871 Census, Theodora jun. said she was his wife, occupation Hat Trimmer. 4 Chn., Catherine, Jemima, Elizabeth and Edward (Henrietta missing). His second m. to Theodora jun. was on 5th June, 1875 at St. Mary's Parish Ch., Lambeth (Banns), when he probably had 3 children by her, two before her mother died. Her father was William Anderson (dec.) Hatter.

      The following is written by Robert Bullen (dbfacga):-

      John William Wates lost both of his parents in a cholera epidemic in 1849, when he was 13 years of age. He and his brother and three sisters were cared for by their grandfather James and Uncle Benjamin in Woolwich. His father and grandfather had been instrument makers and he was apprenticed to Broadwoods, piano makers, who had premises in Soho Square and Horseferry Road. On 12th May 1856 he married Theodora Anderson, a widow. The family story is that he first met Theodora's daughter, also Theodora, who since he was searching for lodgings told him that she and her mother had room for a lodger. At the time of the wedding he was 19 and Theodora senior was 33. Her daughter, who was a witness at the wedding, was 17.

      There were two daughters by Theodora senior, then in 1861 Theodora junior gave birth to a daughter by him. There is a story that Theodora senior attempted suicide when she first heard of her daughter's condition. Presumably Theodora junior went to live with relations and in 1864 a son was born. This birth does not appear to have been registered and was likely to have been by Theodora senior. On 28th April 1899 Theodora senior died at Villa Street, Walworth. She was aged 46 and John William was present at her death.

      In 1871, at the census, John William and Theodora junior were living at Star Corner, Bermondsey with his children by Theodora senior. Theodora was shown as his wife although they did not marry until 1875. Their own daughter, Henrietta, was not with them at the time of the census.

      After the marriage on 5th June 1875 at St. Mary's Lambeth there were two more children. Despite the background Henrietta's recollection of her father was of his being a kind and generous man and both families seem to have lived as one. John William died on 11th January 1900. Theodora junior's experiences do not seem to have put her off marriage for on 4th August 1908, aged 69, she married Thomas Worthington, aged 75, the father-in-law of her son John William Wates.

      John William's families would appear to be:-

      BY Theodora senior BY Theodora junior
      Catherine Anne 9. 7. 1857 Henrietta 2. 9. 1861
      Jemima Sarah Ann 6. 2. 1860 John William 17. 5. 1871
      Elizabeth 15. 5. 1802 Harriet Theodora 27. 8. 1875
      Edward John 16. 7. 1864 Benjamin Robert 9.10. 1877

      From the 1841 Census (HO107 Piece 1057/2 Folio 23 Page 40) John, 5, was with his parents John, 25, Organ Builder and Catherine, 25, in Lambeth, Surrey, England. With him were his sisters Jemima, 3, and Mary, 1. Jemima and Mary were reportedly born in Surrey, the others were not.

      From the 1861 Census (RG9 Piece 331 Folio 190 Page 30) John W, 25, Teacher of Music etc. from Woolwich, Kent, was with his wife Theodora, 38, Hat Trimmer from Bermondsey, Surrey, at 31 New Street, St. George, Southwark, Surrey, England. With him were his daughters Catherine A, 3, born St. George, Southwark, Surrey, and Jemima S, 1, born St. George, Southwark, Surrey, and stepson Thomas E Anderson, 16, Tyre Smith born Christ Church, Surrey.

      From the 1871 Census (RG10 Piece 629 Folio 18 Page 33) John, 34, Pianoforte Maker from Woolwich, Kent, was with his wife Theodora, 32, Hat Trimmer from Southwark, Surrey, at 7a, Star Corner, Southwark, Surrey, England. With them were their 'children' Catherine, 13, Jemima, 11, Elizabeth, 9, and Edward, 6. All the children were Scholars and reportedly born in Southwark, Surrey.

      From the 1881 Census (RG11 Piece 893 Folio 64 Page 30) John William, 45, Pianoforte Maker and Musician from Woolwich, Kent, was at 12 King Street, Chatham, Kent, England. With him were his children Henrietta, 19, Tailoress born Southwark, London, John, 9, Scholar born Southwark, London, and Benjamin, 3, born Southwark, London.

      From the 1891 Census (RG12 Piece 362 Folio 5 Page 1) John, 56, Musical Instrument Maker from Woolwich, Kent, was with his wife Theodora, 52, Hat Trimmer from Southwark, Surrey, at 255 East Street, Newington, Surrey, England. With them were their children John, 19, Boot Laster born Bermondsey, Surrey, Theodora, 15, Boot Machinist born Bermondsey, Surrey, and Benjamin, 13, Scholar born Bermondsey, Surrey. Boarding with the family was George Hackett, 41, Cordwainer (Rope) from Newington, Surrey.


  • Sources 
    1. [S2857] The Wates Family Saga, Margaret R. Pitt, (Middlesex, England - 1974/1998).

    2. [S9808] TAG 2 [Marriage Information (Registration, Banns, Certificate)], accessed 3 Feb 2016), Previously TAG 2 records. (Reliability: 3).

    3. [S2199] Janet Havercroft (Reliability: 3), 19 Jan 2008.

    4. [S2857] The Wates Family Saga, Margaret R. Pitt, (Middlesex, England - 1974/1998), The Wates Family Saga (Reliability: 4), 23 Jun 2008.

    5. [S3811] Wates Family Saga List (Reliability: 3), 19 May 2009.

    6. [S2704] John Wates (Reliability: 3), 17 May 2008.

    7. [S2939] HO107 Piece 1057/2 Folio 23 Page 40, HO107 Piece 1057/2 Folio 23 Page 40 (Reliability: 3), 14 Jul 2008.

    8. [S2350] RG9 Piece 331 Folio 190 Page 30, RG9 Piece 331 Folio 190 Page 30 (Reliability: 3), 19 Jan 2008.

    9. [S2826] RG10 Piece 629 Folio 18 Page 33, RG10 Piece 629 Folio 18 Page 33 (Reliability: 3), 8 Jun 2008.

    10. [S2815] RG11 Piece 893 Folio 64 Page 30, RG11 Piece 893 Folio 64 Page 30 (Reliability: 3), 6 Jun 2008.

    11. [S2816] RG12 Piece 362 Folio 5 Page 1, RG12 Piece 362 Folio 5 Page 1 (Reliability: 3), 6 Jun 2008.

    12. [S8517] England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915, FreeBMD, ((http://freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl)), accessed 2 Feb 2015), Death Registration for John William WATES; Age 64 (1836); Volume 1d, Page 75 Mar 1900, St Saviour Southwark, London, Volume 1d, Page 75. (Reliability: 3), 2 Feb 2015.

    13. [S8561] England Marriages, 1538–1973, ((https://familysearch.org)), accessed 2 Feb 2015), Marriage for John WATES and Catherine EVANS; 2 Nov 1834; Saint Mary, Lewisham, Kent, England. (Reliability: 3), 2 Feb 2015.
      Name:John Wates
      Birth Date:
      Birthplace:
      Age:
      Spouse's Name:Catharine Evans
      Spouse's Birth Date:
      Spouse's Birthplace:
      Spouse's Age:
      Event Date:02 Nov 1834
      Event Place:Saint Mary,Lewisham,Kent,England
      Father's Name:
      Mother's Name:
      Spouse's Father's Name:
      Spouse's Mother's Name:
      Race:
      Marital Status:
      Previous Wife's Name:
      Spouse's Race:
      Spouse's Marital Status:
      Spouse's Previous Husband's Name:
      Indexing Project (Batch) Number:M00668-3
      System Origin:England-ODM
      GS Film number:307679, 307680
      Reference ID:
      Citing this Record:
      "England Marriages, 1538-1973 ," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NVQ6-BQT : accessed 2 February 2015), John Wates and Catharine Evans, 02 Nov 1834; citing Saint Mary,Lewisham,Kent,England, reference ; FHL microfilm 307,679, 307,680.

    14. [S8659] London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921, ((http://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1623&enc=1)), accessed 2 Feb 2015), Marriage for John WATES and Catherine EVANS; 2 Nov 1834; Lewisham, London, England. (Reliability: 3), 2 Feb 2015.
      London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

      Information for John WATES

      Spouse: Catharine Evans
      Record Type: Marriage
      Event Date: 2 Nov 1834
      Parish: St Mary, Lewisham
      Borough: Lewisham
      Register Type: Bishop's Transcript
      http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&MS_AdvCB=1&db=LMAmarriages&rank=1&new=1&MSAV=2&msT=1&gss=angs-d&gsfn=john&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=wates&gsln_x=XO&msgdy=1834&msgdy_x=1&dbOnly=_F00058A6%7c_F00058A6_x%2c_F0005A5D%7c_F0005A5D_x%2c_F0005A49%7c_F0005A49_x&uidh=e72&pcat=34&fh=0&h=10095651&recoff=8+9&ml_rpos=1

    15. [S2704] John Wates (Reliability: 3), 29 May 2008.

    16. [S8519] England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915, FreeBMD, ((http://freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl)), accessed 2 Feb 2015), Marriage Registration for John William WATES and Theodora ANDERSON; Volume 1d, Page 397 Jun 1856, Lambeth, London, Volume 1d, Page 397. (Reliability: 3), 2 Feb 2015.

    17. [S1854] Registration of Marriages, (Ancestry.co.uk), Jun 1875, Lambeth, London, Volume 1d, Page 597 (Reliability: 3), 1 Jun 2008.
      John William WATES + Theodora ANDERSON