Charles Flay[1]

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  • Name Charles Flay  [2
    Born 1828  Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [2, 3, 4
    Christened 10 Feb 1828  Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [5
    Gender Male 
    Baptism 10 Feb 1828  [2, 6
    • Calne, Wiltshire
    Census 6 Jun 1841  Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [7
    England 
    Occupation 6 Jun 1841  Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [7
    Baker's Apprentice 
    Residence 6 Jun 1841  Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [7
    Frog Lane 
    Alias Between 1851 and 1861  [2
    • George Spackman
    Occupation 31 Mar 1851  [2, 4
    • Pork Butcher
    Residence 31 Mar 1851  Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [2, 4
    The Pippin 
    Occupation 1855  [2
    • Butcher
    Death Index No. PRO Abt 1890  [2
    • GRO Index Mar 1890 Vol 11a Page 801. (George Flay Spackman)
    Died Yes, date unknown 
    Headstones Submit Headstone Photo Submit Headstone Photo 
    Person ID I8291  The Williams Family Tree
    Last Modified 2 May 2018 

    Father James Flay
              b. Abt 1792, Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. Abt Mar 1873, Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 81 years) 
    Mother Ann Oady
              b. Abt 1793, Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 12 Aug 1854, Lunatic Asylum, Devizes, Wiltshire Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 61 years) 
    Married 5 Apr 1813  Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [2, 6
    Family ID F2071  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family Caroline Poulsom
              b. Bef 20 Jan 1822, Atworth, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. 4 Feb 1875, Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire, Wales Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 53 years) 
    Married 29 Jul 1850  Corsham, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location  [2
    • They must have left Corsham after 1859 (George's birth) and arrived in Nea th by 15th June 1864 for Charles birth.

      Quar Neath had a slaughter yard and as Charles was a master butcher perha ps he worked there. Worth folowing up.
      Hi John
      1871 Census for Quar, Neath is RG10/5428 f63 p15 to f64 p18, schedul es 62 to
      80, which appears to have been reasonably affluent as it included an
      accountant, a hatter and milliner, and the registrar of marriages , and a
      few blacksmiths, and
      RG10/5428 f68 p25 schedule 118 onwards which seems to have been almost
      entirely workers of various orts employed by the tinplate works. This seco nd
      address is Cae Quar on some pages, Quar on others.

      Surnames in the first part were THOMAS, HEARD, MOORE, DODD, HOPKIN, MARTIN ,
      FREEMAN, JONES, GRIFFITHS, MANUEL, POWELL, THOMAS, ARNOLD, THOMAS, THOMAS,
      THOMAS

      In the second part

      BEVAN, MORGAN, MICHAEL, HOPKINS, SWASH, HOPKINS, MICHAEL, ROBERTS, HOPKINS ,
      JENKINS, THOMAS, WILLIAMS, DAVIES, GRIFFIN, JARRETT, HILL, PARKER

      No Butchers as occupations, no FLAY, SPACKMAN or FREEGARD.

      Both addresses seem to have been off Old Road.

      HTH
      Jeff [2]
    Children 
     1. Samuel Poulsom Flay
              b. Bef 8 Jun 1851, Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. Yes, date unknown
     2. Maria Flay
              b. Bef 10 Oct 1853, Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. Yes, date unknown
     3. Mary Ann Flay
              b. 2 Dec 1855, Calne, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. Yes, date unknown
     4. George Flay
              b. 1859, Corsham, Wiltshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location
              d. Yes, date unknown
    Last Modified 3 Jun 2008 
    Family ID F2256  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

  • Event Map
    Link to Google MapsBorn - 1828 - Calne, Wiltshire, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsChristened - 10 Feb 1828 - Calne, Wiltshire, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsCensus - England - 6 Jun 1841 - Calne, Wiltshire, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsOccupation - Baker's Apprentice - 6 Jun 1841 - Calne, Wiltshire, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsResidence - Frog Lane - 6 Jun 1841 - Calne, Wiltshire, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsMarried - 29 Jul 1850 - Corsham, Wiltshire, England Link to Google Earth
    Link to Google MapsResidence - The Pippin - 31 Mar 1851 - Calne, Wiltshire, England Link to Google Earth
     = Link to Google Earth 

  • Census
    1841: England Census for Calne, Wiltshire
    1841: England Census for Calne, Wiltshire
    HO107 Piece 1168/3 Folio 42 Page 4  

  • Notes 
    • From the 1841 Census (HO107 Piece 1168/3 Folio 42 Page 4) Charles, 12, Baker's Apprentice, was with his parents James, 45, Agricultural Labourer, and Ann, 45, in Frog Lane, Calne, Wiltshire, England. With him were his siblings Eliza, 15, Joseph, 13, and Louisa, 8. Everyone was reportedly born in Wiltshire.

      Why does George Spackman's death certifuicate call him George FLAY Spackma n????

      Are George Flay Spackman and Charles Flay the same person?????

      If they are why did they flee as far west as they could without crossing t he sea? If they are they are the same person Caroline still considerd hers elf a Flay in 1864 when she registered her son Charles Tom Flay while t he family lived in Neath. In the 1861 census there NO Flay or Freegards me ntioned. Therefore, Job didn't come to Neath with the rest of them. Che ck Wiltshire 1861 census.

      I now believe that Charles Flay changed his name to George Spackman someti me between 1851 and 1861 but I don't know why.

      1851 census Calne
      Frog Lane 42
      FLAY Thomas 52 Thatcher Calne, Wilts.
      Hester 62 Cliffe Pypard
      Charles 24 Ag. Lab. Calne, Wilts.
      Jasper 20 Thatcher Calne, Wilts.
      This is the wrong Charles Flay, because he has the wrong father. Howeve r, where did he go and is he confusing the picture
      The one below is the real one.

      Pippin 9
      FLAY Charles 23 Pork Butcher Calne, Wilts.
      Caroline 24 Melksham, Wilts.

      He gives his occupation at the time of his marriage to Caroline as a butch er, living in Calne Wiltshire. At the birth of his last son Charles T om in Neath he was a Master Butcher. He may have been working at the slaug hter yard in Quar Neath.

      Her son George was born in Melksham in 1861 but her next son Charles was b orn in Quar, Neath in 1865 She was the wife of Charles Flay at the time. H er eldest daughter Mary Ann has the surnames of Flay and Spackman at her m arriage in 1877, but Caroline had been dead two years by then. So, perhap s, sometime between 1865 and 1871 census Flay died and she married Spackma n.

      There is no Charles Flay death in the FreeBMD Index between Mar 1850 and D ec 1901 and he is not in the 1901 census. My reasons for thinking th at he died sometime between 1865 & 1871 are these.
      1. Charles Flay the son was born at Quarr Neath & he is NOT describ ed as deceased. and the son has a surname of FLAY. His father is nam ed as Charles Flay, Master Butcher.
      2. In the 1871 census of High Street/Dew Street Haverfordwest they are a ll have a surname of Spackman. Get a copy and put in scrapbook.

      Therefore, sometime between 1865 & 1871 Caroline married (or moved in wi th and assumed his name) George Spackman. But where and when? I have searc hed in the BMD Index on 'online1837.co.uk' from January 1864 to Dec 1870 a nd the whole of 1872 for Charles Flay death. No mention.
      I have also checked the Index for a marriage of a Caroline Flay from Janua ry 1864 to Dec 1871. No mention anywhere. Also for Spackman from Jan 18 65 to Dec 1871. Found only TWO George Spackman. One in the3rd Qtr of 18 66 at Wilton Vol 5a Pg 307, he married a Mary A WATT. The other is in 1 st Qtr of 1867 at Cheltenham Vol 6a Pg 566. He married a Caroline BAKE R. Is this a coincident or a bad transcription. Coincidence I think, a Car oline Baker was born twenty odd years earlier in the area.

      I have seached the GRO Index from Jan 1864 to Dec 1870 for Charles Flay 's death and the whole of 1872. No mention.

      A Charles Flay died aged 70 in Reading in March Qrt of 1901 Vol 2c Pg 25 6. I dont think it is the one. But maybe he and Caroline seperated? I cann ot find this Charles Flay in 1881 census. The only Charles Flay born in Wi ltshire was born in 1870!

      There is a Walter Flay mentioned in Pigots Directory of 1830 on page 7 94 in Calne.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ann Patterson"
      To: "'John Bartlett'"
      Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 12:04 AM
      Subject: RE: [NZ] Charles Flay of Wiltshire UK

      1891 Census of UK: "Reading, Greyfriars, Battle, S. Mary"
      Address: 79 Welsilet
      Charles Flay, Head, M, 61,(making him born in 1830-ish) Frame Sawyer, bo rn Wiltshire, Calne
      Caroline Flay, Wife, M, 52, --, Bridgewater
      Kate Flay, Daughter, S, 28, Laundress, Calne
      Hanz Flay, son, S, 21, Factory Employee (there's a tiny note here that I c an't read) Bortes?, Reading
      Emily Flay, Daughter, S, 16, Tailoress, Bortes?, Reading
      <>
      Alice Flay 8, Berks Reading
      Daisy Flay granddaughter 6 Berks Reading

      John,

      Both of the original images are available. IF you want them please. L et me know and I will email them to you.

      ==================

      Also a Charles 40 or 48, Mary (wife) and Charles Flay (10) Agricultural
      Laborers in Devon, St. Thomas, Tiverton,

      ==================
      Charles 70 (retired coachman) and Mary 75 Flay of Somerset, Taunton, St.
      James Born in Devon and Somerset, respectively.
      ==================

      I concur that Samuel Flay, born in Calne, is missing from the 1891 cens us of
      UK.
      However there are 10 Samuel Flays most of them born in Bristol
      Ages 12, 56, 38, 38, 11, 11, 38, 11, 22 and 32

      Original census images are available for all of these if you would like to
      see any of them just let me know, please.
      =================
      There is also a Samuel Flay listed in the 1830 Census of Baltimore MD wi th 4
      males and 2 females listed in the household (no further information
      available)

      ========
      I hope that this helps.

      Annie
      San Francisco, CA, USA. 4/Aug/03

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Helen and Bill"
      To: "John Bartlett"
      Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 12:33 AM
      Subject: Re: [NZ] Charles Flay of Wiltshire UK

      Hello John,

      The marriage of Charles FLAY and Mary Ann GEE was in 1866, folio 488.

      There is a marriage for a Samuel Septimus FLAY to Anne Helen PETERS, in
      1907, folio 420.
      This could be Samuel FLAY's son.
      Also found a probate for Samuel Septimus FLAY, of Waitara, retired Farme r, Court, New Plymouth, Probate Number 8946, Will. Enquiries to Archives W ellington.
      You can contact Archives at www.archives.govt.nz
      You can order a marriage certificate at: www.bdm.govt.nz

      Regards,
      Helen
      wg.turner@xtra.co.nz 4/Aug/03

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Joanna Broad"
      To: "John Bartlett"
      Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 4:54 AM
      Subject: FLAY in NZ

      Hi John
      I've just seen your message on the NZ List.
      I recall that there was a FLAY family farming at Te Awamutu near Hamilt on - went to university with a son. Very tall fellow.
      Anyway, NZ is still pretty small, you could just check up on the white pa ges in the phone book:
      http://www.whitepages.co.nz/
      & send off letters. Hamilton & Te Awamutu are in the Waikato area. But n ow I've done it there are more than I thought there would be - 21 in Waika to & 89 in NZ - aargh!

      Cheers,
      jo in auckland 4/Aug/03

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "LIAVA'A"
      To: "John Bartlett" ;
      Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:19 AM
      Subject: RE: [NZ] Charles Flay of Wiltshire UK

      Charle Flay married Mary Ann Gee 1866, folio no 0488
      certificate available from http://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf
      wait till after sept 1, when it will be cheaper. 4/Aug/03

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Patsy McMillan"
      To:
      Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:32 PM
      Subject: FLAY

      Hi John

      In my NZ Society of Genealogists Members Interest there is someone reserac hing the name FLAY
      Mrs Suzanne TERVIT 307 Carlton St Te Awamutu 2400
      The FLAY family she is searching for seem to come from Bath and Tivert on in Somerset pre 1851and Melksham in Wiltshire 1852+

      The NZ phone book shows the following

      Listings: 1 to 3 of 3

      Tervit B G

      307 Carlton St Te Awamutu
      0-7-871 2886

      Tervit M P

      0-7-871 6466

      Tervit S J & E M

      325 Young St Te Awamutu
      0-7-871 4700

      Let me know if I can be of further help
      cheers
      Patsy
      http://www.genebug.com and again on
      http://www.countrystay.co.nz 4/Aug/03 [2]

  • Sources 
    1. [S3657] The John Flay Line (Reliability: 3), 25 Apr 2009.
      Temporary Tag

    2. [S1397] John Flay.

    3. [S1468] Beazley's Book 'The Beginnings', Beazley, (Book published in Australia).

    4. [S1420] 1851 Census for Wiltshire, Wiltshire 1851 Census Productions, GL4 0BJ.

    5. [S8511] England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ((http://www.familysearch.org)), accessed 31 Dec 2013), entry for Charles FLAY, person ID 8291; 10 Feb 1828, Calne, Wiltshire, England. (Reliability: 3), 31 Dec 2013.
      Name:Charles Flay
      Gender:Male
      Christening Date:10 Feb 1828
      Christening Place:Calne, Wiltshire, England
      Birth Date:
      Birthplace:
      Death Date:
      Name Note:
      Race:
      Father's Name:James Flay
      Father's Birthplace:
      Father's Age:
      Mother's Name:Anne
      Mother's Birthplace:
      Mother's Age:
      Indexing Project (Batch) Number:I03917-1
      System Origin:England-EASy
      GS Film number:1279383
      Reference ID:p241

      Citing this Record:
      "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NRPG-XZ5 : accessed 31 Dec 2013), Charles Flay, 10 Feb 1828.

    6. [S1421] Vital Records Index - British Isles, (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints).

    7. [S1895] HO107 Piece 1168/3 Folio 42 Page 4, HO107 Piece 1168/3 Folio 42 Page 4 (Reliability: 3), 19 Oct 2007.